Ask The ISO Man - Frequently Asked Questions

My question is as follows... Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2004 10:12 AM

We are currently ISO 9001-2000 registered as of August 2004. Our Training procedure was revised and an statement was added the says" As of December 1,

2004 all employees are grandfathered. Can the statement be added? Is this acceptable? If someone can answer this question please reply.

More information to help you understand the questions.

I did not write the procedure. I was reviewing this to conduct an internal audit on Training and found this statement. This procdure was written January 2004 and has been revised 2 times. I think this statement was added to address training issues that could not be completed before our registrars return to conduct their periodic audit next month. Below is taken from the procedure.

"Identification of Training Needs; Grandfathering can only occur for employees prior to December 1, 2004. Grandfathering training reports are indicated in the training database."

I feel that the statement that was added is incorrect. I am trying to gather information to substantiate my feeling to report back. If procedures have been established and revised, can you put this statement into the procedure after the initial release? Does a grandfathering clause refer to all aspects of the standard. I mean does it refer to everything that requires training for our Quality Management System?

Hope this information will help you understand what is going on. Please advise.

Answer... Reply Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 7:37 PM

Thank You for your excellent question.

This "Grandfathering" issue appears too often.

ISO 9000 and 9001 must be used as a set when auditing. This relationship is mandated in ISO 9001:2000 in "2 Normative References". There is no reference to "Grandfathering" in any version of the ISO 9000 series of standards. The American Heritage Dictionary describes grandfather as "1, The father of one's father or mother. 2,A forefather; ancestor." The use of the word "Grandfathering" was prevalent in contract negotiations between company and unions. The common use in this context was to preserve pay rates and / or job titles when contract changes negatively affected a few individuals. The intent was to protect wages and status for senior employees while lowering wages for new employees. "Grandfathering" has no relevance to the standard or the standard requirements. It is in appropriate language and an inappropriate concept. The ISO 9001:2000 standard; 6.2.1 General, Requires

that: Personnel performing work affecting product quality must be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience. 6.2.2, Competence, awareness and training, Requires that: The organization must:

    a), determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,

    b) provide training or take other actions to satisfy these needs,

    c) evaluate the effectiveness of the actions taken,

    d), ensure that its personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their activities and how they contribute to the achievements of the quality objectives, and

    e), maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience. These records are required records. When no training records are available for existing employees at the beginning of a registration the company must determine competence for all employees effecting quality. This statement of competence needs to be documented and can be based on past performance. This begins the process of identifying training needs. The procedure then describes how the company will proceed with evaluations in the future.

I hope this explanation will provide some insight and assist you in your audit.

The ISO Man.

My question is as follows...  Posted: Friday, December 03, 2004 4:26 PM

Is it a requirement that an organization have a certified (has successfully taken an RAB approved lead auditor class) lead auditor on staff for internal audits?

Answer... Reply Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:35 PM

Thank You for your question. I apologize for taking so long to reply. The simple answer is no, it is not a requirement of the standard.

However...

The standard requires that: Personnel performing work affecting product quality shall be competent on the basis of appropriate education, training, skills and experience. The standard also requires that: The organization must,

    1 - determine the necessary competence for personnel performing work affecting product quality,

    2 - provide training or take other actions to satisfy these needs,

    3 - evaluate the effectiveness of the actions take,

    4 - ensure that its personnel are aware of the relevance and importance of their activities and how they contribute to the achievements of the quality objectives, and

    5 - maintain appropriate records of education, training, skills and experience.

The company must provide competent people to perform internal audits.

What is the criteria for auditor competence?

The ISO Man.